ABC TV (AUS): World in
Focus [transcript]
Wednesday, July 31, 2002
WORLD IN FOCUS
Interview with Michael Ware
Interviewer:
Jennifer Byrne
Michael Ware is TIME Magazine's correspondent in
Afghanistan. With the hunt for Osama bin Laden
continuing, and renewed speculation about whether or
not he is still alive, Jennifer Byrne talks to Ware
about the Afghanis, their government, aid agencies,
and the involvement of the U.S. military.
Transcript:
Byrne: Michael thank you for joining us tonight. Now,
the majority of British marines will be out of
Afghanistan by the end of August - we’ve just seen
pictures of American troops reading books in their
barracks.... How does this portrayal of men near the
end of their mission square with what you’re seeing
on the ground?
Ware: Large scale confrontations and large scale
operations have certainly... are on the decline....
the problem being, finding the enemy is the difficult
part. So the focus now is on much smaller, far more
precise, more surgical operations. Very much the
special forces are out there pursuing the al Qaeda
and Taliban remnants, and in the east of Afghanistan
that’s certainly what they’re coming across - Al
Qaeda soldiers... al Qaeda foot soldiers, and
Pakistani militants who are infiltrating back across
the border from the tribal areas in Pakistan.
Byrne: You’re saying that there’s sporadic fighting
with the Taliban remnants, but the concensus seems to
be that the vast majority of Taliban and al Qaeda
forces have withdrawn to the mountains of Pakistan,
and are just waiting for the international forces to
go before they return... is that your impression also
– and if so, when is this mission ever going to end?
Ware: Yeah, I do agree. In my opinion, the greatest
problem facing the U.S. led forces at the moment is
just finding an exit strategy – When can they get out
of Afghanistan? Coming in was relatively easy, on a
wave of military success. Staying here and
maintaining the peace is increasingly proving to be a
losing battle. So how can you get out? If the
American bombers in the skies left the airs today,
the al Qaeda camps, the Kashmiri militant camps, the
Pakistani militant camps would all be back here
tomorrow. So when can the Americans leave? Either
when they eradicate these hard-core groups – which is
not going to happen any time soon – or when they have
secured the support of the civilian population so
that these people do not want the militants here, or
until there are government institutions in place that
can secure this country. And again, neither of those
things are going to happen any time in the near
future.
Byrne: I saw the Deputy Defence Secretary Paul
Wolfowitz was quoted the other day as saying this
dispute could last just as long as the cold war, and
I take it the internationals aren’t going to want to
stick around that long?
Ware: Absolutely not. For the time being, the
military forces seem to have the political stamina to
stick it out, but they know that that’s a very
limited resource that they have... that political
support. There’s talk of some of the international
contingents leaving before the end of the year,
however there’s a noticeable change in the American
attitude. I was in Kandahar when the marines first
arrived in December shortly after the fall of the
Taliban. At that time the marines were saying, ‘this
is an extremely short term mission’ – however now
you’ll find that with the 82nd Airborne now in
control in Kandahar, permanent facilities are being
built. Concrete foundations are being built,
air-conditioned barracks are under construction, the
tarmac is receiving more and more work, it is
becoming an American facility.... a permanent
American facility. And the American spokespeople in
Bagram Airbase three weeks ago, said we anticipate
staying here for between eighteen months and two
years. So there’s considerable creep in the time
frame for the Afghan mission.
Byrne: Mmm. Mike, let’s talk a bit about the hearts
and minds issue – the old hearts and minds stories –
particularly around Kandahar where you’ve spent much
of your time.... do the people living there, where
you say there’s pockets of support still for the
Taliban and al Qaeda, do they accept that the
Americans are doing the best they can, and yes
there’s occasional disasters like the bombing of the
wedding party... or basically are they hostile – is
it a population that just wants the Americans out?
Ware: The tide has very much turned in the South. I
am now hearing far too commonly a statement that
though it is without some basis, it is very
heartfelt. More and more you are hearing people say
'we were better off under the Russians'. As the
Afghans say to me, 'in the first twelve months, the
Russians were not bombing our families... however,
that’s what the Americans are doing'. At the same
time, there’s no sign of humanitarian assistance or
roads and bridges and schools. So they’re seeing
nothing from the international community except
American bombs. There is no security. Outside the
city of Kabul it is still extraordinarily difficult
and dangerous for NGO’s and aid agencies to be
working. Much of the north is currently closed off to
aid agencies. In the south, they rarely set foot
outside of Kandahar, and there’s only a token
presence of U.N., World Food Programme, Red Cross and
a handful of other agencies. Every mile you take
outside of the major cities, it becomes wilder and
wilder country where there is no sign of any
assistance.
Byrne: Mike, what of those billions of dollars
pledged in Tokyo not that long ago... the
international community said 'we will help – we’re
going to rebuild Afghanistan'. Has that money not
turned up?
Ware: These things take a long time. For example the
first tranche of American aid money - $280 million
has already been soaked up, and as American
diplomatic sources say, the vast majority of that
money went directly to the U.N. and its agencies to
set up the infrastructure that was severely lacking
here. The next series of monies that are due to come
through from the international donors, including
America, is hoped to go more directly into real,
on-the-ground construction projects. However, there’s
enormous difficulties... you must work with the
Afghan administration to accomplish this – and that
is a deeply flawed administration. You have Karzai,
who is the Chief of State... he is the President, yet
Hamid Karzai has no power in this country. He has no
ability to project central government power into the
rest of Afghanistan.
Byrne: In fact he now has American body guards,
hasn’t he?
Ware: Yes, he does and that was an extremely
significant development last weekend. That is a real
sign of a sea-change, and that is exactly how western
diplomatic sources describe that to me. Karzai is now
so threatened both externally and internally – even
from within his own cabinet – that he must take
recourse to foreign protection. Now of course, that’s
an enormous gamble. As a western diplomatic source
said to me ‘we knew that there will be great
political cost for taking this move, however we know
that whatever the price it will be less that losing
Karzai. There is very much a perception here among
the Afghan people, particularly in the south, but
across the country, that this is a country under
foreign occupation. And there are many people – and
this is a growing view – that regard Karzai as a
foreign puppet. The adoption of foreign soldiers to
protect him just further entrenches that view – in
fact the Defence Minister was privately telling his
generals last week, what kind of a situation is it
when the Minister of Defence for Afghanistan must
seek approval from foreign soldiers to meet with his
own president. What does this tell you about the
president? What does this tell you about this
government?
Byrne: Michael Ware, thank you very much for joining
us tonight. Thank you.
Ware: Thank you, Jennifer.