ABC TV (AUS) Lateline: 'No
hope' for British hostage [transcript]
Thursday, September 23, 2004
'No hope' for British
hostage
Reporter: Tony Jones
TONY JONES: Back now to our top story -- and what may
be the last hours of a man who, having seen his two
American friends taken away to be murdered on video,
has been put in front of the same camera to beg his
government to save him.
But the 62-year-old Briton, Kenneth Bigley, is in the
hands of the most ruthless killers in Iraq.
The Tawhid and Jihad group led by Abu Musab
al-Zarqawi are simply milking Bigley's life for
whatever propaganda benefit they can derive.
One of the very few Western journalists to have made
contact with al-Zarqawi's group, and who knows
exactly what they're capable of, is Michael Ware of
'Time' magazine.
As many of you will know, a Brisbane boy who's made
his name by taking risks few other journalists
wouldn't even consider.
Michael, thanks for joining us again.
MICHAEL WARE, 'TIME' MAGAZINE CORRESPONDENT: It's my
pleasure, Tony.
TONY JONES: Is there anything at all the British
Government can do do you believe to save Kenneth
Bigley?
MICHAEL WARE: The short answer is no.
Absolutely not.
Anything less than completely voiding or at the very
least crippling the Atlantic alliance, you know,
seriously undermining the British alliance with
Washington would not save this hostage.
Unless they remove British troops immediately,
something we all know that Tony Blair is not going to
do, there is absolutely no hope, I'm afraid, for the
British prisoner.
TONY JONES: So there are no useful backchannels, no
ways of influencing al-Zarqawi's people behind the
scenes?
MICHAEL WARE: There's absolutely no room for
negotiation.
Anything less than a complete political humiliation
for the US military here in Iraq will not suffice.
We've encountered this in the past with, for example,
the South Korean hostage who was held by the same
group, al-Zarqawi's al-Tawhid al-Jihad, as you
correctly point out.
There was embassy officials who were turning to
counterparts and saying "These people want nothing.
There's nothing we can give them."
I'm afraid that's most likely the same case here and
I have had some insight into the negotiations under
way, the attempts to negotiate the release of the US
prisoners held by this group.
And I can tell you that essentially nothing was
offered from the US side.
So I don't think the Brit can be saved at this stage.
TONY JONES: What insights can you offer?
How indeed were any negotiations at all conducted.
Is this all done through third parties in
subterranean fashion?
MICHAEL WARE: Absolutely.
Different people are appointed or nominated to speak
for both sides.
Sometimes the difficulty is for those two people to
link up or to find each other.
There's different ways that that is handled,
depending on the case, depending on the
hostage-takers.
It's a very, very murky world.
One of the most common mechanisms which is applied
almost immediately is putting out the message through
the Iraqi clerics, through the mosques, letting
people know that anyone who has anything to say on
this, anyone who wishes to negotiate can, through us,
contact the Americans the Iraqi Government or the
companies involved.
However, in this case, that system just does not
apply.
TONY JONES: Michael, this is one of the strangest
things, in the face of this continuing brutality to
the hostages and even tonight we're hearing that
perhaps the two Italian women hostages have been
murdered as well.
It appears from this side of the world, anyway, that
the Sunni Iraqi clerics, the senior clerics who you
would think would have some sway over these people
religiously, appear to remain mute in the face of all
this horror.
Why is that, what is happening?
MICHAEL WARE: Well, they've had a period where the
Sunni clerics, the most powerful organisation of
which is the Muslim Clerics Association headed by a
deeply conservative religious man by the name of
Harith al-Dhari.
This is a man who US intelligence widely suspects of
his own involvement in the insurgency and the
resistance to US forces.
Yet early on this man made it clear that he and the
clerics he represents do not support the beheadings.
This has resulted in a feud within the resistance
movement.
In fact, I came into possession of some audio tapes,
purportedly of al-Zarqawi himself directly
criticising and attacking the Iraqi clerics, directly
attacking Harith al-Dhari and accusing him of being a
coward who is cooperating with the enemy.
We have heard recently of some assassinations and
kidnappings between the international Jihadists led
by al-Zarqawi and the nationalists and the Iraqi
Islamists who are, by and large, a touch more
moderate.
So, they're muted right now, because they're under
intense pressure.
There is a division, a rift, within the insurgency
and this is line upon which it faults.
TONY JONES: So, the last time we spoke to you,
Michael, you told us you'd actually spoken to the men
who were involved in the execution of Nicholas Berg
and also to someone who was there when the Italian
hostage was decapitated.
How did these people justify their involvement in
acts of violence so gross?
MICHAEL WARE: You know, to their mind, this is part
of the great holy war. What has to be done is done.
They feel that it's justified in the purist terms as
they see it, the highest sense of jihad or holy war.
This is a matter of enormous dispute within the
Islamic community.
Clerics, scholars, feverishly debate these points and
I think you'll find that the weight of Islamic
academia does not support this point of view.
Which is why certain clerics are so important to
these terrorist groups, such as that holding the
Brit, al-Zarqawi's group.
They have their own religious committee which issues
its own fatwas, justifying or endorsing certain
practices or tactics, specifically, if you cannot get
the Iraqi conservative clerics to authorise beheading
then you have your own religious committee to do it.
The most amazing development on this front in recent
days is that a US missile strike last Friday actually
hit and killed a vehicle carrying the head of the
al-Zarqawi's religious or fatwa committee, so we're
seeing enormous developments in this area as we
speak.
The British hostage, his fate, as you say, most
likely already settled, just one part of this.
TONY JONES: That killing that you've referred to,
very little has been written about it but there is
some material out there that's just emerging about
this American strike on this cleric.
How much is that playing into the current hostage
situation do you believe?
MICHAEL WARE: Well, put it this way -- one of the
Iraqi resistance sources that I have who has some
knowledge of the slim communications that have passed
between the US military and members of the resistance
who purport to be representing these hostage-takers,
he says that in the midst of our conversations, in
the midst of whatever negotiations there were, the
Americans conducted this strike in Fallujah.
Not only was it in the midst of the conversations but
it killed the very men who authorises these
beheadings.
They were not seen as unconnected.
TONY JONES: So, what response do you think there's
going to be from al-Zarqawi to this?
I mean, this is the man presumably that he reveres
above all?
MICHAEL WARE: Well, to some regard no matter who it
is, and I would even argue as do some Western
analysts that even if you took out al-Zarqawi at this
point, it's not going to matter terribly much.
These are groups that have shown time and time again
an outstanding capacity for regeneration.
They cocoon themselves, they compartmentalise,
they're able to operate with relative autonomy.
They need only the broadest guidelines, individual
targeting and operational decisions are made by the
cells themselves.
They're able to replace heads as soon as you cut them
off.
So, I think that we'll see al-Zarqawi's group, whilst
this may be a body blow, at the end of the day, they
will recover from this far too quickly and move on.
TONY JONES: Once again, the last time we spoke, you
talked about the growing influences of al-Zarqawi as
becoming a sort of svengali operating among the emirs
in what they call the mujahadeen.
Do these acts of terror that he's perpetrating now,
are they ensuring that he remains a powerful force
within Iraq?
MICHAEL WARE: He's certainly a force to be reckoned
with, both politically and militarily.
Even though he has far fewer numbers of soldiers or
agents than the Iraqi commanders or the Iraqi
resistance leaders.
I mean, there's more Iraqi nationalists out there
fighting Americans than there are al-Zarqawi's
terrorists, yet money and the public momentum that
he's built up gives him power, beyond his numbers,
influence beyond just the number of men that he has.
However, that's not to say that it's an easy fit.
As the Iraqi clerics are having trouble with some of
al-Zarqawi's tactics,so too are some Iraqi
nationalist commanders.
They're trying to form into an alliance that
represents their interests, separate from
al-Zarqawi's.
They are maintaining a dialogue and are conferencing,
literally, on this with al-Zarqawi's people, but
there is still a divide, so, this is not an easy
moment, at the end of the day al-Zarqawi maintains
the whip hand.
Indeed, look at Baghdad itself.
Within mortar range of the US embassy al-Zarqawi has
taken over a suburb.
He's raised his banners in the streets.
Indeed, I encountered al-Zarqawi's men there just
days ago and (chuckles) we're lucky to be standing
here talking to each other now.
They have come out and said, "We're here, we're
defying you.
Come and get us."
The Americans are unable to defeat that.
TONY JONES: Michael, that is a critical point -- the
Americans in spite of the strike on al-Zarqawi's
cleric, they appear to be operating at a tremendous
constraint at the moment, largely because of the US
election.
The thing that they're not doing is what many of the
military people are now saying they must do which is
to go in and destroy these strongholds of al-Zarqawi
and the other insurgents and to do so with maximum
force.
They're clearly not going to do that.
How damaging is that to the overall plan?
MICHAEL WARE: Well, there's a 'takeback light'
version, under way right now.
They're actually attempting to take small cities back
from the insurgents.
We saw it begin in Najaf where they ousted the Shia
militants and then immediately supplanted an Iraqi
administration.
Well that was a Shia area.
Their first foray into the Sunni, the hardline,
heartland, came with the town of Sumarra which the
Americans surrounded, the insurgents left, and and an
Iraqi administration was put in.
It's with mixed results.
We've just seen a missile strike in Sumarra in the
early hours of this morning.
We saw a US convoy or patrol ambushed in Sumarra,
this retaken city, yesterday afternoon.
It's a very difficult strategy, and listen, there is
much talk about a massive offensive that is about to
begin.
What we're seeing in these cities is now just a
foretaste, a prelude so what we're being told in very
private circumstances is to follow the US
presidential election, but put that way, if the US
forces are going into their town, they'd better be
ready to raze them and to bear the enormous political
cost of that.
Because that's what's going to take -- maybe some of
us have been here too long or have spent too much
time and a have a feeling of being under siege but
you can't shake the feeling that this is a war that
is already lost.
I was with a group of American journalists who last
night only jokingly -- but nonetheless tellingly --
were talking about when the last helicopter leaves
who's going to be on it.
There's just a very uneasy mood here right now and
very aggressive action needs to be taken.
Whether that will work is still really up for
question, what can we do.
TONY JONES: Michael, with that question, we'll have
to leave you and as always we wish you well and we
wish that you are safe until we meet again.
Thank you very much for joining us tonight.