Click
photo to play
Length: 6:19
WOLF BLITZER: Grim warnings of civil war in Iraq from
two top U.S. generals, as they and the Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld appeared today before the
Senate Armed Services Committee. Their very frank
testimony in contrast to what was said only a few
months ago. For more now, we want to bring in our
pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr and CNN's
Michael Ware, he's in Beirut.
But as all of our viewers know, he covered the war in
Iraq for a long time as "Time" magazine's bureau
chief. Barbara, let's start with you. I want to play
a sound bite from what the defense secretary said
back in March and what he's testified today before
the Senate committee. Listen to this.
(BEGIN FIRST VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The insurgents
and terrorists are trying to cause a civil war. And
so they've attacked the golden dome shrine and
they're trying to create sectarian conflict. I don't
think they're going to be successful.
(BEGIN SECOND VIDEO CLIP)
We can persevere in Iraq or we can withdraw
prematurely until they force us to make a stand near
home. But make no mistake, they are not going to give
up, whether we acquiesce in their immediate demands
or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: We know Barbara, the Secretary of Defense is
very precise with his language. You cover him on a
day to day basis. Have you seen a shift in his own
public statements, as far as the current situation in
Iraq is concerned?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: I think
there is a shift Wolf, I think it is an evolution
over time rather than conflicting statements.
Clearly, the pentagon hoped when the new Iraqi
government was put in, they would be able to control
the violence, that the violence would decrease. That
simply has not happened, especially in Baghdad,
sectarian violence on the rise. The United Nations
now estimating as many as 100 Iraqi civilians on
average die each day in attacks in that country.
BLITZER: Michael Ware, I want you to listen to
General John Abizaid, as you know he's the commander
of the U.S. military's central command, he's in
overall charge of the entire Middle East region for
the U.S. military. Listen to what he said back in
March and listen to what he said today.
(BEGIN FIRST VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, COMMANDER U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: I
believe that we are not on the verge of a civil war.
I believe that the sectarian issues are controllable.
(BEGIN SECOND VIDEO CLIP)
I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as
bad as I've seen it in Baghdad in particular, and
that if not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could
move towards civil war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: I traveled with him to Iraq last year,
Michael. He is a man very, very precise, about as
expert on the situation in Iraq as anyone in the
United States military. What do you sense his words
suggest to you as someone who spent a lot of time
there?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It suggests to me
that the military's public campaign -- not its
private assessments, but its public campaign -- has
finally caught up with the reality on the ground.
Now, that's a reality that's been clear and apparent,
not just to the Iraqi people, not just to the
generals, but also to military intelligence for all
of this year, and even in some quarters at the end of
last year. So in one sense, this is nothing new.
Everyone knows that Iraq is on the verge of civil
war. If not, it's actually in a muted form of civil
war. The only difference now is that General Abizaid
is actually saying it publicly. And Secretary
Rumsfeld is being very careful, he's mixing two
separate issues, the civil war in Iraq with a
terrorist threat to homeland America. One must be
very careful of that, Wolf.
BLITZER: Barbara, listen to also General George
Casey's, the overall U.S. military commander in Iraq,
listen to what he said about U.S. troop levels back
in June, only a few months ago, and what General
Abizaid said today.
(BEGIN FIRST VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. GEORGE CASEY, U.S. COMMANDER IN IRAQ: I think
we're going to be able to see continued gradual
reductions of coalition forces over the coming months
and into next year.
(BEGIN SECOND VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND:
Senator, since the time that General Casey made that
statement, it's clear that the operational and the
tactical situation in Baghdad is such that it
requires additional security forces, both U.S. and
Iraqi.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And Barbara, as you have been reporting for
a long time. They would have dearly liked to reduce
U.S. force levels in Iraq toward the end of this
year. Given the facts of the situation on the ground,
doesn't look like it's going to happen.
STARR: Wolf, that's exactly right. You know, they've
said since the beginning, troop withdrawals depend on
conditions on the ground. They had hoped to be
talking right now about bringing as many as two
brigades of troops home, several thousand troops. Not
going to happen.
Conditions on the ground are terrible, especially in
Baghdad, and those troops are going to have to stay.
In fact of course as we now know, over 3,000 troops
are staying an additional four months. That's
conditions on the ground right now, Wolf.
BLITZER: And I think you will agree, Michael Ware,
someone who has now been shuttling between Baghdad
and Beirut, as dangerous as the situation is for you
personally in Beirut right now, it's a whole lot more
dangerous in Baghdad.
WARE: Yeah, you're absolutely right, Wolf. I mean as
perilous and as heart-wrenching as the situation here
in Lebanon is, it pales to the day to day of Iraq. I
mean, for example, the horrific bombing in Qana, the
mistake by the Israeli air forces, where they killed
between 30 and 50 civilians in an air strike.
Now that is barely one ordinary day in Iraq. And the
fight against the American soldier continues,
relentlessly, as an unceasing drip feed of dead
soldiers and wounded troops. Not to mention the Iraqi
civilian death toll. It's astronomical -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Michael Ware doing some excellent reporting
for us in Beirut and our Barbara Starr always doing
excellent reporting at the pentagon. Thanks to both
of you very much.