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Length: 3:53
ANDERSON COOPER: Of course, you're looking at
pictures back from April back in 2003 which seems,
frankly, like an eternity ago.
Joining us right now on the phone, CNN's Michael
Ware.
Michael, you've covered this story more intensely,
more closely than just about anybody I know. First of
all, just a personal thought. Your thoughts upon
hearing of the death of Saddam Hussein?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone):
Well, clearly Anderson, this is a significant event,
a historic moment. But the most immediate question
is, what impact if any is this going to have on the
security situation -- most pertinently, on the war.
Now, there's very, very few Sunni insurgents out
there who have been fighting for a return of Saddam
or his regime. However, he is now seen as a symbol of
Sunni oppression by what's perceived to be a Shia
government.
Also, they'll be sure to make propaganda value of
Saddam's execution. So they're the most immediate
thoughts that I have of this day.
COOPER: Michael, I mean, you spent a lot of time
talking with various insurgent groups, reporting on
them. Describe the insurgency as you see it now, the
different groups that there exist, and how this death
plays into it. I mean, the nationalist insurgents who
you've talked about -- who we've talked about
together in the past. How do they see this execution?
How do they read Saddam Hussein?
WARE: Well, we're waiting to see what emerges from
the Internet traffic, from the Nationalist Web sites.
So far it appears to be very little response, as
indeed across Baghdad itself. It seems that right now
the response is somewhat muted.
Now, whilst there is something of a hangover among
some of the upper echelons of the Baath party -- an
old-time yearning for some kind of return to Sunni
power as Saddam represented -- very, very few, if
any, of the fighters in the field are actually out
there conducting combat in the name of Saddam
Hussein.
Whilst the U.S. military is want to use the term
Saddamists to describe elements of the insurgency, by
and large it's inaccurate. What we now see is
nationalists fighting to free their country.
Or we're seeing Sunnis defending themselves, as they
see it, against the growing Shia threat.
Or indeed we're seeing Iraqis becoming Islamicized
and radicalized and drifting towards al Qaeda and its
affiliated groups.
Now, for none of these people did Saddam, himself,
nor any future for Saddam, play into their plans in
any way. But like I said before, keep your eyes open
for propaganda value. Be sure that they will use this
to rally the Sunni cause.
COOPER: Michael, how important do you think for the
Iraqi government are getting these pictures out? Of
showing people in Iraq that Saddam Hussein is in fact
dead?
WARE: Absolutely vital. I mean, I believe we learned
that lesson back in 2003 with the deaths of Saddam's
sons in the northern city of Mosul in a vicious gun
battle, Uday and Qusay.
Now, for some time there was debate about whether in
fact they were dead or not. A lot of this came about
because of the public identification. So it's vital
that the public is satisfied that Saddam is dead.
As in many things, particularly in war and
particularly in somewhere like Iraq, perception is
reality. The people need to know that it's true and
that it's real and that Saddam is actually dead --
Anderson.
COOPER: Michael, stay with us on the phone.
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Length: 2:43
ANDERSON COOPER: We have
reporters -- you just heard from Ryan Chilcote in
Baghdad; CNN's Michael Ware who has reported for
years now from Baghdad, joins on the phone.
Michael, the pictures, you know, for those in the
United States, is perhaps just a point of interest.
For people in Iraq, it is much more than that. What
is the importance of seeing these images?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN BAGHDAD CORRESPONDENT (via
telephone): Well, they need to know in their hearts,
to see it for themselves, that Saddam Hussein, this
fearsome, ogre-ish character is finally gone.
Be they Sunni, Shia, or Kurds, they need to be
settled in their own minds that Saddam is dead. We've
seen the confusion back in 2003, following their
death in a gun battle of his sons Uday and Qusay, and
how those lingering rumors that either one was still
alive. So it's very important then and now that these
pictures are released, and that people are satisfied
in their minds. Remember in Iraq, as elsewhere,
perception is reality. People need to be sure in
their minds so they can move forward.
COOPER: And the impact, Michael, of this death on the
current problems -- on the insurgency, on the death
toll -- I mean will it really have any impact
whatsoever?
WARE: Well, if it will, I suspect it will be minimal
and will be more of a propaganda splash than anything
else. I mean the irony is that the trial itself,
Saddam as a figure, has largely been irrelevant to
the wars in Iraq. And I say wars because there's
many: there's the war with al Qaeda, there's the
Sunni insurgency, there's militia wars, there's the
civil war, and there's the undeclared rivalry between
the United States and Iran for influence. Now Saddam
and his followers had no bearing on any of those.
Ironically, in death, his passing may be used by some
as kind of rallying cry. Whilst very, very few out
there in the Sunni community -- and indeed in the
Sunni insurgency -- would be yearning for a return of
Saddam, or indeed, his regime, nonetheless, he's come
to represent a symbol of what the Sunni's see as
their oppression at the hands of the Shia-dominated
government. So in terms of propaganda, or the
information wars, his death may come into play in
some regard.
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photo to play
Length:
2:25
ANDERSON COOPER: I just
want to bring in Michael Ware, joining us, who has
been listening in on the phone.
Michael, talk about that fear. What is it like for
people in Baghdad today?
Michael Ware, are you there?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN BAGHDAD CORRESPONDENT (via
telephone): Yes, I am.
COOPER: Michael, I don't know if you could hear the
ambassador's comments but we were talking about fear,
both the fear under Saddam Hussein and the kind of
fear that exists today, based on insecurity. If you
can, just talk about what it is like for reporters
working in Baghdad or for citizens, for Iraqi
citizens in Baghdad today. What does one fear now?
WARE: Well, the fear in the streets is palpable. I
mean the daily life of an ordinary Iraqi family is
almost unimaginable to those of us back home in the
relative safety of the West. I mean, if it's not
Sunni suicide bombers or assassination teams, it's
Shia death squads, it's, you know, the American
military and collateral damage. I mean death
surrounds the Iraqis.
Anyone with the means to leave the country has done
so. Everyone else is bunkering down. We're seeing a
form of ethnic cleansing as neighborhoods are divided
along ethnic lines. We're seeing mortar wars between
neighborhoods. One neighborhood firing bombs at
another neighborhood. We're seeing men having to
group together at night to defend their streets from
roaming death squads, many of whom are in police
uniforms.
You can't even drive to work with any sense of
safety. If you come across what in the West would be
an ordinary thing, a police road block, or a police
speed check, you don't know who these men in uniform
are. So the fear is something that is constant,
absolutely constant.
Now the removal of Saddam will have absolutely no
impact on that, whatsoever. The dynamics of the wars
that are under way if Iraq right now, have nothing to
do with Saddam at all. So that state of life for the
ordinary Iraqis -- and quite frankly for the U.S.
service personnel -- will continue, regardless.
Click photo to play
Length: 5:09
ANDERSON COOPER: A look
back at some of the regime of Saddam Hussein.
We talked earlier with Michael Ware, who joins us now
on the phone. We talked about that fear before.
Michael, in Baghdad, especially today, you know, we
hear these reports of 40 bodies being found on a
daily basis; 50 bodies being found, 60 bodies. And
often tortured to death it seems with drills. What is
going on? Why are people just being rounded up and
tortured to death? And who's doing it?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN BAGHDAD CORRESPONDENT (via
telephone): Well, Anderson, this is the civil war
that the military has trouble describing. This --
what is going on here is what started as tit-for-tat
attacks, one ethnic sect against the other.
Essentially, this is the enduring legacy of the al
Qaeda terrorist leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who was
killed in June last year. Way back in 2003, he said
that he was going to start this civil war. He saw
that as the way forward for the Sunni population at
the end of the day. He started launching attacks
again the Shia. At first, the Shia didn't respond.
Then eventually they started responding to each
attack.
Eventually we now have what the situation is today: a
completely unfettered civil war that has its own
momentum. What we're seeing is death squads, many of
them in police and army uniforms, going around,
rounding people up, dragging them from their homes in
the dead of night, using legitimate vehicles,
legitimate uniforms, legitimate identification,
taking them to police stations and government
facilities and torturing and killing them.
At the same time, we have Sunni assassination teams.
Zarqawi and al Qaeda set up the Omar Brigade, two
years ago, to specifically hunt down and kill key
Shia. So this is just mayhem on a grand scale. There
is a blood-letting that is difficult to describe.
And, as you rightly point out, we see 40, 50, 60
bodies a day in the capital alone. That doesn't count
for any other province or any other cities.
COOPER: Michael, as you were speaking just crossing
on the wire, the U.S. military has announced the
death of two more American soldiers, we already
mentioned the death of one more. But another one
apparently was killed on Saturday, the U.S. military
just announcing it now. That makes the death toll for
this month, 108. The significance of that is now
December is the deadliest month for U.S. forces in
2006, and it brings the total number of combat
fatalities to 2,998. Very close to that horrific
3,000 mark -- or 97, I should say: 2,997.
Michael Ware, U.S. forces, how are they now being
used? We'd heard a lot of talk about U.S. troops sort
of pulling back, pulling back to bases. Not having
such a big footprint. Is that still the case in
Baghdad, and the surrounding areas?
WARE: Well, particularly, in Baghdad now, there has
been to some degree a reversal of that. We saw with
the launch of what came to be known as the battle of
Baghdad, or officially Operation Together Forward.
This was a grand scheme to reclaim the capital from
the insurgents, the death squads, and the militias.
However, even by the military's own assessment it has
been less than a stunning success. That involved the
use of large numbers of American forces, extra troops
were brought into the capital, working side by side
with their Iraqi partners.
However, in many cases, it's those Iraqi partners who
are doing a lot of the killing. Sometimes the
Americans will enter a neighborhood with Iraqi
allies, and a lot of people recognize those Iraqi
allies as the very death squads who plague their
streets at night. So it's an extraordinarily
complicated thing.
The American policy right now is to focus on Baghdad.
As Baghdad goes, so they say, so does Iraq. But the
big question is, while so much energy and troops and
resources are concentrated on the capital, what, for
example, is happening in western al Anbar Province,
which President Bush himself says is the front line,
the headquarters of al Qaeda? While the troops here
in Baghdad, who's out in al Anbar Province?
This is giving al Qaeda the oxygen it needs to
strengthen itself, recruit, and to move forward.
Meanwhile in the south, there's a limited number of
coalition troops. This is allowing Iran, it's
proxies, surrogates and allies to consolidate their
power there. So, whichever way you look at it,
there's nothing but problems ahead for the U.S.
strategy.