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Length: 6:29
JOHN ROBERTS: Let's move
on to Baghdad. Tonight, the Bush administration is
acknowledging that the violence in Iraq has entered a
new phase, as they say. But National Security Adviser
Stephen Hadley won't use the words civil war.
CNN's Michael Ware joins us now from Baghdad.
And, Michael, is it really just a game of semantics
here? The White House won't use the word civil war.
Some American news organizations, including "The Los
Angeles Times," are beginning to use it.
Does it really make any difference as to what it is
on the ground?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't think
anyone here really cares what it is called. They know
what it is. They have to live it day in, day out.
And, to them, it is civil war. You talk to al Qaeda
commanders, they think they're in civil war. You talk
to the Mahdi army commanders, they think they're in
civil war.
You talk to the families that are too scared to leave
their homes, that can't send their kids to school,
for fear of crossing sectarian lines, where teachers
probably won't show up anyway, whose neighborhoods
have fighting positions dug in, who, each night, the
father has to join with others to fend off death
squads in police uniforms, institutionalized hit
teams, where you have parliament restricting access
to the media, because what is being said could be
considered to be inflammatory, you have got Sunni
patients being pulled out of Shia-run hospitals and
never seen again; to them, this is civil war.
And, by any academic's definition, this is civil war,
organized conflict by two elements within a country
to pursue the political center, with elements of
ethnic cleansing, militia combat, family against
family, neighbor against neighbor, with a degree of
organization and coordination.
John, you can tick all of those boxes. So, whether
the White House calls it civil war or not, the fact
on the ground is, if this isn't civil war, we don't
want to see one when it comes.
ROBERTS: Michael, Nouri al-Maliki, the prime
minister, said that the politicians have the power
within them to stop this violence. Is there any
suggestion that the politicians have any interest in
squelching the violence at this point?
WARE: Well, it is really not up to the politicians,
per se.
I mean, let's look at this government of Nouri
al-Maliki to begin with. To what degree does it
really exist, behind his prime ministerial office and
the office of the national security adviser? Beyond
that, this administration is merely an amalgam, or an
alignment, of various Shia and Kurdish militias.
Now, for the Shia militias, there's absolutely no
interest whatsoever in relenting right now. And al
Qaeda and the Sunni extremists are gaining more and
more foot soldiers as a result of these front lines
being created along the sectarian divide. So, no. Who
is going to listen to these people?
ROBERTS: Some people have suggested that this is a
countrywide version of what Chicago was like in the
1930s. It's almost gangland there.
Jamie McIntyre, 3,700 Iraqis died last month,
according to the United Nations. Is that a suggestion
that, despite their best efforts to get between these
two sides, that the fighting is so intense, that the
American military really is powerless to stop these
killings?
MCINTYRE: Well, you know, I guess there's a level of
military force that you could apply, you know,
equivalent to sort of martial law, that could restore
order.
But, you know, the real problem is here, is, there
really isn't much debate among experts that this
really is a civil war. To the extent people want to
argue whether it is a low-level civil war, a
full-blown civil war, it could be even a worse civil
war, that's -- that's true.
The problem is that, once you label this a civil war,
then, you have to admit that the strategy that the
United States and the Iraqi government is employing
is not the right strategy to end a civil war. So,
they insist on not calling it a civil war.
ROBERTS: Yes. They keep calling it a
counterinsurgency.
But, Michael Ware, as long as these two sides
continue to go at each other, they're going to be
causing pain and suffering for normal Iraqis. Is
there still a sense -- you mentioned family-on-family
violence there, neighbor against neighbor. But is
there still a sense that the majority of ordinary
Iraqis just want to live their lives in peace; they
want to see this all go away?
WARE: Without a shadow of a doubt.
The ordinary Iraqi civilian just wants to return to
some essence of normal life, to have a job, and to be
able to drive to it and come home at night safely, to
be able to send the kids to school, and know that
they will come home, for the shopper in the family to
be able to go to the market without having fear of it
being wrenched apart, to sleep in your bed at night
without fear of men in government uniforms with
government I.D. bursting in the door, dragging you
away from your family, and having them never see you
again. That's what they want.
ROBERTS: And what I got from some families who
wouldn't be the target of these reprisal killings,
but are still worried, they say, the thing that they
worry most about are the mortars, the mortars that
get flung into their neighborhoods on a nightly
basis.
Jamie McIntyre, if the Iraq Study Group comes out
with its recommendations in the next week or two, how
long could it take for those to filter through the
system, until they finally get implemented on the
ground in Iraq?
MCINTYRE: Well, you know, it really depends on
whether they come out with a major change in strategy
or whether they tinker with the strategy that is in
place now.
And, of course, one of the problem is, if you
radically change the strategy -- for instance, if you
put all the emphasis on coming up with some sort of a
power-sharing or peace agreement, and then try to
enforce that, as opposed to continuing to build up
the Iraqi army, one side against the other, the
problem is, if it is too big a change, you're really
sort of repudiating the military judgment of some of
the generals who are in charge, who have basically
said: We think we're following the right strategy.
So, in a way, because there's civilian control of the
military, what you would really have to do is maybe
fire or replace some of the top generals with
somebody who agrees with the new strategy, because,
right now, you have got General Abizaid, General
Casey arguing that, basically, what they're doing now
is the right thing.
So, it is hard to see how you have a major change,
and then you just ram that down the throat of the
commanders, who, at this point, are saying they don't
think it's the right thing to do.
ROBERTS: Going to be interesting to find out if this
is actually going to have an impact or it will be one
of those studies that just ends up on the shelf.
Jamie McIntyre, Michael Ware, thanks very much.
Appreciate it.