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JOHN ROBERTS: Today those
Iraq War casualty numbers climbed higher. The
Pentagon reported that nine U.S. troops were killed
in Iraq. They died in insurgent attacks in Anbar
Province.
Also, this is the aftermath of a car bomb in Baghdad,
one of two in the city today that killed at least 10
people and wounded dozens more.
The violence follows the surprise visit to Iraq by
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She was there to
apply some diplomatic pressure, urging the Iraqi
leaders to stop fighting and create a unified
government.
There's been a lot of talk lately about civil war in
Iraq. But how do insurgents feel about it? That's
what Michael Ware went to find out. The "TIME
Magazine" Baghdad bureau chief spent time inside the
insurgency. He was with both the Sunni and Shiite
militias.
Michael Ware joins us now from Baghdad to talk about
his trip behind enemy lines.
And Michael, we heard Former Iraqi Prime Minister
Iyad Allawi say a couple of weeks back, that the
country was in the throes of a civil war. Obviously
there might have been a political component to what
he had to say. But how are the insurgents actually
feeling about it? Do they believe that they're in the
throes of a civil war?
MICHAEL WARE, "TIME MAGAZINE" CORRESPONDENT: Well,
this is the strange thing, John. No, the insurgence
and the Shiite militia commanders that I spoke to --
and I went to as many as I possibly could -- say no,
we are not yet in a civil war. They all admit that
there are death squads roaming unchecked through the
capitol, Baghdad, and beyond. They say that there is
a high level of sectarian violence. Sunni killing
Shia and Shia killing Sunni, yet they say this does
not make a civil war.
And what the bulk of the insurgency and the bulk of
the militias are saying is, "we don't want civil war.
It's not in our interests at this point."
And indeed, we're seeing ongoing cooperation between
the Sunni and the Shia against what they say is the
main focus. The main game is the common enemy, and
that is the American military.
ROBERTS: Well, when they say it's not in our
interests at this point to be involved in a civil
war, it sounds like it's definitely something that
they're thinking about.
WARE: Well, absolutely, John. I mean, all of these
men, I said to them, well, if a civil war erupts,
what will you do? Each one of them swore that, "we
will be on the frontlines." So I've been speaking to
the trigger pullers who will be manning the
barricades, should a civil war erupt.
Yet one of the other interesting things about this is
the assessment from these men matches precisely the
assessment of U.S. military intelligence here in
Iraq.
U.S. military intelligence believes it's the
extremists on both ends who are trying to drag the
middle ground into this conflict. And that was
reflected by these insurgent and militia commanders.
ROBERTS: You know, Michael, a lot of this sounds like
a real game of semantics. They say that they're not
in a civil war, they don't want a civil war. But as
you said, there are these death squads roaming around
unchecked. There are certainly an awful lot of
insurgent attacks, not only against U.S. forces, but
against Sunnis and Shiites. I mean, is there not some
sort of low level civil war going on right now?
WARE: Well, personally, John, yes, I believe there
is. It's my opinion that there's been an undeclared
or low-boil civil war here for well over a year.
Now, there was one insurgent commander who agreed
with that view. He said that with the level of
deaths, it's clear that there is a pattern that is
emerging of an eradication of Iraqi Sunnis.
Now, that may be extreme. Yet nonetheless, U.S.
military officials do confirm that there are as many
as 25 bodies showing up every morning in Baghdad
alone. Former Prime Minister Allawi, America's chief
political ally in this country, says there's as many
as 50 to 60 showing up a day.
So the questions about what makes a civil war: how
many people need to die, and for what reason? What
these insurgent commanders are saying, however, I
think, is that, "well, that is not at the moment our
principal focus. And we have not yet taken to the
front lines along the sectarian divide, but we do
have the death squads out there clearing things up
and probing."
ROBERTS: Yes, well certainly, Michael Ware, if there
was some form of ethnic cleansing going on, even at
the lowest levels, I mean, that would be an
indication that something bad is definitely going on
there.
Thanks very much for joining us. We appreciate you
being with us, as always. Michael Ware, from Baghdad,
"TIME Magazine" bureau chief there --
Heidi.