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Length: 4:05
ANDERSON COOPER: Well,
the politics of Iraq are one thing -- people differ
sharply on them, of course -- the facts are another,
at least they ought to be.
So, having dealt with politics at the top of the
program, we turn to another fact-check from CNN's
Michael Ware. He and I sat down early today, shortly
after the war bill passed the Senate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So, the Senate has given final approval. This
is now going to go to the president. He will likely
veto it.
Sending this message on a withdrawal, though, what
kind of an impact do you think it has on ground for
our troops and for the war?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, clearly, for
the troops, it's not a positive message.
I mean, they feel that the American people are behind
them as soldiers. But they're clearly feeling that
support for the mission is eroding.
COOPER: This is what you hear from soldiers who
you're embedded with?
WARE: It's not articulated directly. But you can tell
that they know that there's slippage, in terms of the
broader mission.
And I can certainly tell you that the troops on the
ground, especially those coming back for their
second, third, or fourth; guys who are being
extended, told they were coming for 12 months -- now
they are coming for 15 and in future they will always
come for 15 -- are becoming much more cynical about
what is going on, on the ground and what they're
achieving.
COOPER: Does a withdrawal make sense, in terms of
sending a message to Iraqi politicians?
WARE: No, none whatsoever.
I mean, the Iraqi politicians don't feel that kind of
pressure. That's a delusion back here in Washington
and in America, that, by threatening to withdraw U.S.
forces, that's somehow a carrot or a stick to
motivate them, or what I hear on the ground, to
incentivize them, when, in fact, it's quite the
opposite.
Maliki is not the true power in that government. The
true building blocks of power there, to some degree,
would love a U.S. withdrawal. And many of them call
for it, publicly, definitely privately, because they
will be the ones who would capitalize from the chaos
that will follow.
COOPER: Because they want the chaos; they want a
sectarian, once and for all, figuring this out?
WARE: They want to consolidate the power that they
now have. And, indeed, they want to extend it.
And, for example, essentially, this Iraqi government
doesn't exist as a government, per se. It's a loose
alliance of militias, most of whom, according to U.S.
intelligence, are backed by Iran. So, they want to
consolidate that Iranian-sponsored power and, indeed,
extend it.
And you can imagine what kind of threat that poses to
America's Arab allies in the region.
COOPER: It doesn't seem like the U.S. has a plan B.
President Bush, I think, recently said that -- that
plan B was to make sure that plan A works.
Do -- it sounds like what you're saying is, a lot of
these militias, a lot of these sectarian groups, and
maybe even Maliki, they do have a plan B. And they're
already working on the plan B. And the plan B is when
the U.S. leaves.
WARE: I think everyone is working on their plan B,
Anderson.
Indeed, when I had Major General Robert Mixon -- he's
a commander of a U.S. division in northern Iraq --
when he opened the door and said that we can achieve
U.S. victory here with a non-Democratic state, much
like our other Arab allies in the Middle East, that's
plan B. If Maliki and his democracy doesn't work,
then there is another option.
COOPER: Petraeus said today that if all that's
happening is the sectarian groups, the death squads
are just laying low, then that's going to lead to
failure.
Is that's what is happening?
WARE: Oh, yes, absolutely.
The surge has its positives. I mean, it's within a
very narrow confine, the successes of the surge. The
militias are not dismantled. The militias have not
been taken apart. They have been disrupted. They have
been displaced. But they are still there. And they
are still the true power in Iraq.
Whatever the surge is doing, and whatever else the
U.S. mission is doing, from the beginning, it's the
same as now. We're still not fundamentally addressing
the true dynamics of Iraq. And that's the militias
and the foreign interference, principally Iran and
Syria.
COOPER: Michael Ware, thanks.
WARE: Thanks, Anderson.