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ANDERSON COOPER: How much
of what's happening in Al Anbar is because of the
surge?
MICHAEL WARE: Very little, Anderson.
I mean, what we have seen develop in Al Anbar
Province, what the Americans call their Sunni tribe
program, which is really an American militia-building
program, began well before the surge.
I mean, we know that there's been covert negotiations
between the Americans and the insurgency since 2004.
We then started to see the tribal program emerge back
last year. So, it predates the surge by almost nine
months.
COOPER: It comes with great risk, though. I mean, the
Shia- dominated government here is very concerned
about it and what it may mean for the future,
especially if U.S. troops leave.
WARE: And so they should be. I mean, this is one of
the reasons that the Americans have engaged in this
militia-building program. It doesn't just work for
them against al Qaeda. It's also a stick with which
to beat the Iraqi government and try and prod it into
real action. And, above all of that, it's a major
block against the encroaching Iranian influence that
America is now so desperately fearing.
COOPER: Michael, thanks.
We will have more from Michael Ware coming up later
on in this 360 special.
We will also talk to Iraq's prime minister, Nouri
al-Maliki.
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GRAPHIC: U.S. opinion of
war in Iraq, September 7-9. Favor, 34 percent;
oppose, 63 percent.
ANDERSON COOPER: Those were some of poll numbers that
greeted General Petraeus as he testified in
Washington this week. Support for the war, now in its
fifth year, has been declining. And as we learned
this week, there are still going to be large numbers
of U.S. forces here going into next year's elections.
You're going to hear politicians trying to come up
with solutions, though there are no easy solutions at
all for what's happening here. The end game, that's
what we want to talk about with CNN's Michael Ware,
who joins me now here in the Green Zone.
In the United States, some, mostly Democrats, want a
date set for withdrawal. They say, those who support
that, that it would pressure the al Maliki
government, it would pressure the Iraqi military to
stand up faster. Would it?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's a dream-like
state. Anyone who's telling themselves that is
absolutely deluding themselves. Maliki's under no
pressure from the presence or not of American forces.
I mean...
COOPER: Really? He's not under pressure from American
forces?
WARE: No. Whilst America, on the one hand, is
propping up his regime, on the other hand, they don't
answer to the Americans. They don't feel beholden to
the Americans. And they have a ready-made sponsor
waiting in the wings to step into the American
vacuum, as the Iranian president himself this week
said.
So the presence of American troops is meant to serve
U.S. interests, Western interests. They're not
necessarily the interests of the government that
America has created.
COOPER: But the U.S. can pressure them to some
degree, no?
WARE: It can and it's trying that. It's failed
abysmally until this point. Right now the greatest
stick that America has, that it's jabbing this
government with, the only thing that's forcing them
to even pretend to meet any of the benchmarks on
de-Ba'athification or reconciliation is that America
is now supporting the Ba'ath insurgency. It's
supporting the Sunni tribes, and this is terrifying
this government.
This government's trying to block it at every turn.
Iran has said that you're going to pay a severe price
if you keep doing this, but it's the only thing.
COOPER: You know, there are a lot of folks in the
United States who say, look, why should the U.S.
troops be here? I mean, why should Americans be
losing their lives here when Iraqi politicians are
going on vacation and are not even passing, you know,
reforms that would work towards reconciliation, which
would seem -- I mean, everyone seems to admit that's
essential for progress here.
WARE: And that's right. And that's not going to
happen. You may get it on the surface. You may get
some bells and whistles, but you're not going to get
true reconciliation, no matter how much people are
working to...
COOPER: Still too much hatred and too much desire for
retribution?
WARE: And too much vested interest. I mean, it
doesn't suit peoples' agendas to come together in the
middle. And there's external players all around this
country who don't want to see that happen, and
they're having much greater affect here than America
is.
COOPER: Those who support the U.S. effort here say
that American troops should stay because they are
vital national security interest here. If American
troops did pull out in great numbers, withdraw
totally, even, say in the next year or so, do we know
for sure what would happen? Or is it a roll of the
dice?
WARE: No one knows for sure. But one thing that we
can count on is that the blood will flow. And
American foreign policy interests will suffer such a
withering blow I'm not sure that they would be able
to recover from this region.
America can leave tomorrow, as long as it's ready to
pay the price. And let's not forget: everyone wants
the American sons and daughters to go home. But this
is the dilemma facing liberal America: you can do
that, but you're going to have such death and misery
on your conscience.
There is a moral imperative here. America chose to
invade. America created this environment that's not
just hurting the Iraqis but it's hurting American
interests. It's fuelling al Qaeda and fuelling Iran.
You can walk away from that, but it's not without
price.
COOPER: Well, Michael, you take an enormous risk to
be reporting here, and we appreciate it. You do a
great job. Thanks so much. We're going to have a lot
more from Iraq coming up. A 360 special, "Anvil of
God", a really remarkable look at the battle of
Fallujah.