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6 a.m. in Tbilisi. Anderson Cooper speaks with Michael and with Jill Dougherty in Moscow. Michael updates the Russian troop movements; Jill explains the thinking of the Russian leadership.
ANDERSON
COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We begin with breaking news,
Russian forces keeping their grip on parts of
Georgia, America walking a very fine line, talking
tough, but also sending a clear message today: We're
not spilling American blood over the crisis.
Though details are still in dispute, Pentagon sources
say hundreds of Russian troops either are or were in
two Georgian cities, Gori and the port city of Poti.
Georgia claims that Russian forces now control a
third of the country. Russia says they are mainly
limited to the breakaway territories in Abkhazia and
South Ossetia.
Secretary of State Rice is in Paris, bound for
Tbilisi. Defense Secretary Gates today sounding a
clear warning. If Russia doesn't pull back, he said
-- quote -- "The U.S.-Russian relationship could be
adversely affected for years to come." He also ruled
out any American use of force.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GATES, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The United States
spent 45 years working very hard to avoid a military
confrontation with Russia. I see no reason to change
that approach today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER: Well, that's the big picture.
For details, let's go now to 360's Michael Ware in
the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, and Jill Dougherty in
Moscow.
Michael, the president of Georgia estimated Russian
soldiers control about a third of the country.
Russia's ambassador said that is -- quote --
"disinformation of spectacular proportions."
Do we actually know what the situation is on the
ground in terms of where the Russian troops are?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson, we do
have a fairly good idea.
Now, what we do know is that the Russians attacked
across two fronts. This is a two-pronged attack.
First, they went into both the pro-Russian enclaves
here in Georgia, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Now,
once they secured those areas, what they did is, they
actually went further. It wasn't enough. They pushed
into undisputed Georgian territory. And they seized
one, if not two, Georgian towns themselves. In fact,
I saw one of these towns under Russian control
myself. That's the town of Gori. Now, there, mingling
with the Russian troops on the front line, the thing
that struck me most was just how comfortable they
were, so relaxed.
Why? Because they know that there's no real threat
against them. The Georgian troops I have seen have
rallied from the original onslaught from the
Russians, but they pose no real threat, nor does an
overstretched America. And the Russians know that.
Meanwhile, on the second front to the West, they most
likely, it seems, almost certainly, seized the key
port town of Poti. And, then, last night, we heard
that a column of about 100 Russian armored vehicles
were heading south through Georgian territory towards
that harbor town, quite possibly to reinforce the
troops already there.
The Russians are in the box seat, Anderson, and it
looks like they're consolidating their position.
COOPER: Jill, Russian officials said today that
Georgia would help the two breakaway provinces,
Abkhazia and South Ossetia secede. What has been
their reaction? I mean, how do they see it?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN INTERNATIONAL U.S. AFFAIRS
EDITOR: Well, Anderson, actually, they're not quite
going that far.
The Russians, it sounds as if that's what they are
saying, but what they're saying is, those two
breakaway regions, they're -- it will have to be
defined what is going to happen to them. So, the
Russians are saying, you do what you want. Whatever
it is, whether it's seceding, joining Russia,
whatever they want to do. We will support it, as long
as it is in, let's say, compliance with international
law.
But what they're making very clear is, they believe
that, on the ground, de facto right now, there is no
way, especially that South Ossetia is going to
reunify with Georgia or anything of the kind. The
people there don't want it. So, the Russians are
saying, this is a situation on the ground. It will
have to be defined legally. But, essentially, there's
no way they're going back.
COOPER: You know, Michael, I was in Abkhazia with
Georgian forces in the mid-'90s. They were trying to
prevent Abkhazia from breaking away. They failed.
They couldn't do it. Are Georgian forces any match
for Russia's military now?
WARE: Well, no, absolutely not. And that's been made
evidently clear now.
And, remember, this is a Georgian force that's
heavily backed by the U.S. There's more than 100-odd
trainers or advisers here in the country. There's
been lots of military aid, in terms of materiel. And,
in that area you're talking about, Anderson, over the
last decade or so, the major administrative center
has changed hands three times, the third time being
just in the last few days, as the Russians retook
that center from the Georgians.
And that's the whole point. As the Russian foreign
minister said, Georgia is an American protege. And
it's two things. One, look what happened to its
forces. But, most importantly, look what's happened
to an American military force already straining at
the seams with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Where are they? Where are they to back up their
guarantees, their alliances, their NATO friends, or
their -- their countries in NATO alliances like
Georgia?
And that's the whole point, to send a message to the
rest of the region. Bottom line, the Georgians are
incapable of doing anything. It's now up to the
Russians -- Anderson.
COOPER: Jill, I want to play our viewers something
that Mikhail Gorbachev, former president of the
Soviet Union, said just a short time ago on Larry
King's program.
Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
MIKHAIL GORBACHEV, FORMER PRESIDENT OF SOVIET UNION
(through translator): I have been saying that we have
not been able to establish a sound relationship
between Russia and the United States after the end of
the Cold War. I believe that the United States has
made mistakes, for which the people have to pay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Clearly, this is a show of force. This is a
flexing of muscles by Russia, sending a message to
the United States and the world.
How is America seen in Russia these days? I mean, is
it viewed as being weak?
DOUGHERTY: Well, you can say that some people who
watch it closely do believe that the United States is
overstretched and can't really do a lot.
But there's also the -- the feeling in Russia among
the people, basically, would be a feeling, actually,
of being surrounded. You know, the West has the idea
of Russia is the aggressor. But the Russians really
feel that they're surrounded, that, for instance, if
you had Georgia as part of NATO, it's right there on
the southern border. They feel absolutely surrounded.
And this decision now by Poland, with the United
States, to agree on the missile shield in Poland is
another slap for the Russians. They're really not
going to like that either.
COOPER: Jill Dougherty, Michael Ware,
thanks.