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It's just before 6 a.m. in Baghdad, and Rick Sanchez asks Michael to comment on the US death toll in Iraq topping the 4,000 mark. The woman who joins the conversation is Martha Zoller, one of three women Rick had been talking to about Iraq. She makes a valid point as far as not wanting to make the number more important than the lives lost (surely whoever was #3,999 is grieved for just as deeply!) but anyone who thinks that a milestone like that isn't going to be commented upon is just kidding themselves.
RICK
SANCHEZ: We've got Michael Ware now. He's standing by
in Baghdad, ready to file this report as we get word
of this milestone being reached.
Michael, perhaps you can share, since you've been
there so long and you've been one of the few
reporters who've really been on the inside of this
from the very beginning. Is this more than just a
number and, if so, why?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, I think
it's undeniable that when the U.S. military struck
this harrowing mark of 4,000 deaths, that does not go
without some kind of symbolism. It comes just days
after this war's fifth anniversary. When these four
soldiers were killed -- we're talking about perhaps
only eight hours ago, here in the southern part of
the capital Baghdad -- that really does say
something.
You cannot help but take a moment to pause and to
reflect. I'm sure soldiers and commanders throughout
the mission will be taking that moment as well. 4,000
American deaths now in this war that continues to
grind away, where there seems to be so little in
sight that suggest it's coming to an end at any time
soon.
That, perhaps, is the darkest reflection of all.
4,000 deaths and very little so far has changed.
We're seeing success from the military's surge here
in Baghdad, where they flooded the capital with
30,000 extra combat troops; where they've cut deals
with their former enemies among the Sunni insurgents;
where anti-American rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is
now finding political accommodation from the U.S.
military following the cleric's declaration of a
ceasefire.
So whilst there are gains that have been made,
there's still nothing to say that anything is getting
any better in a real sense; that the fundamental
building blocks of this war have been changed. And to
now have the 4,000th American death really is a
chilling moment.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you, Michael. Michael, I just
want to interrupt you for a moment, because since
we're talking of numbers, I want to ask you about
something that rarely is talked about on network
television in the United States. And that is, the
4,000 Americans is serious enough. But is it your
understanding that the number of dead Iraqis would,
what, double, triple? Or what would it do? What is
that number? Do you know it?
WARE: Well, Rick, no one can give you a figure of the
number of Iraqi souls that have been lost in the five
years so far of this conflict. But it's exponentially
greater than two or three or even ten times this
terrible number of American casualties. We're talking
about -- on conservative estimates between 80,000 to
100,000 Iraqis have lost their lives.
And that's not to mention more than 4 million Iraqis
are displaced from their homes. 2 million are lost
here in Iraq wanting to return home. 2 million more
plus are beyond this country's border and there seems
little hope for any of them to return.
And the entire social fabric of this country has been
torn asunder with a legacy of this war that it's now
divided along sectarian lines, Sunni versus Shia,
when it never was before, not even under Saddam. So
the impact and the toll that this conflict has taken
on this country is almost immeasurable.
SANCHEZ: Michael, if you allow us for a minute, I
want to bring Martha. Martha, you're shaking your
head while you're listening to Michael's report. Is
it because of a disagreement?
MARTHA ZOLLER, HOST, MARTHA ZOLLER SHOW: I really do
disagree on some of the issues. I've been there, not
as long as Michael has been in Iraq, but I've been
there twice. I have been into some provincial areas
and in many of the provincial governments they are
functioning. Baghdad is continuing to be a problem
but better. And I just think that's the story that's
not being reported.
SANCHEZ: That it really is a success? Is that what
you're saying?
ZOLLER: That the provincial governments are
functioning the way they should in most...
SANCHEZ: Michael, how about that? That the provincial
governments are now functioning much better and in
many ways the way they should be functioning.
WARE: Well, there's a number of things we can say
about that. Certainly on paper, there is a thin
veneer of success in the fact that the provincial
governments, or some of them, are operating in the
way that they are. But let's look at it this way.
Most of those provincial governments are operating in
that way because they are so heavily supported by
Iran.
We're talking about provincial governments in the
south where there's very little Sunni-Shia divide at
all because it's a largely inclusively Shia
population, where they're ruled by political parties
and paramilitary factions, either created in Iran
during exile from Saddam or which have been created
after this conflict began by Iran's Qods Force or
other political organizations within Iran.
The other provinces that are functioning so well here
in Iraq are the Kurdish regions to the north, where
they essentially have a parallel government to the
central government in Iraq. They have their own
territory, their own parliament, their own
representatives for defense and foreign affairs. So
there's a duplication here. They've only recently
been able to grit their teeth in the Kurdish north
and fly the Iraqi national flag rather than a Kurdish
flag.
So, yes, in one very limited sense they are operating
but, come on, let's look at the realities. They are
consolidating their power, weakening the central
government--
ZOLLER: And what about Anbar, though?
WARE: Anbar province, Anbar province is in the
control now of the former Sunni insurgency with whom
they've cut a deal with the Americans. They are
functioning but it's the Iraqi Islamic party which
has ties to al Qaeda and which can barely deliver any
kind of services or distribute the budget that it
has. So there is progress but let's look at it in the
big picture in its true context.
SANCHEZ: Michael, we are out of time. Thanks so much
for hustling to the camera and bring us this live
report just as we got this latest information that
the 4,000 milestone has in fact been
reached.