Click photo to play
Length: 7:50
MARK DAVIS: It has been a
tough week in Iraq, with bombings and street fighting
sweeping central Baghdad. Against this backdrop came
reports of Australians being kidnapped. There’s still
no confirmation of claims that two Australians have
been taken hostage. But if they have, God help them,
because in the middle of an election campaign, both
Mr Howard and Mr Latham are resolute that there’ll be
no negotiations with the kidnappers. I spoke earlier
with Time Magazine’s Michael Ware from Baghdad about
this crisis and the 100 other kidnappings of
foreigners that have occurred in recent months.
Michael Ware, thanks for joining us. I imagine by now
every known Australian in Iraq has been contacted. Is
there still a chance that two are missing?
MICHAEL WARE, TIME MAGAZINE CORRESPONDENT: It's - it
would be entirely possible, I would imagine. The
registration list for nationals of any country in
Iraq can't be considered 100% reliable. I know, as of
yesterday morning, there was still confusion about
finally checking all of those in Iraq, when I knew I
hadn't been checked at that point. Since then, yes, I
have been contacted and I've confirmed my safety. I
imagine that's happening with others. There's just no
accounting for who could be working for which company
unregistered with the embassy.
MARK DAVIS: Well, I guess we can't speculate whether
there are Australians that have been taken hostage.
But in your meetings and discussions with militants
in the recent past, are Australians seen as a
sought-after target?
MICHAEL WARE: Well, any foreign national, whatever
their reason for being in Iraq, is a target of some
value. It's a fact that we were such, you know,
flag-bearers for the coalition, particularly in the
early days. We are so closely associated with the
Americans that we would be a prized catch. Indeed,
yesterday I was with an Iraqi nationalist guerilla
group and they went to pains to remind me that
Australian interests were legitimate targets because
of our close association with the Americans.
MARK DAVIS: There are reports that Australia has sent
an SAS team to Iraq. Have any of these situations,
these hostage situations, been resolved by force to
date?
MICHAEL WARE: There was one incident where some
foreign nationals were said to have been released by
a US Special Forces raid. However, that claim is
shrouded in mystery. But it would be extraordinarily
unusual for anyone to seek to use military solution
to a hostage crisis. Put it this way, Mark - it's
extremely rare that we would even know where they
are.
MARK DAVIS: You must have seen probably a hundred of
these situations since you've been in Baghdad. How
are they normally resolved?
MICHAEL WARE: Well, through protracted negotiation.
Obviously, it depends on the nature of the group who
is holding a particular hostage. It can be anyone
from organised crime or criminal gangs who are
looking for, you know, kidnap for profit. It can
occasionally be nationalist guerilla groups, who are
doing it to fund their ongoing operations.
MARK DAVIS: How do the negotiations actually happen -
I mean who comes in, who makes the contact, where do
the meetings happen, how are the messages conveyed?
It's an insight you might have that we haven't heard
before.
MICHAEL WARE: The methods of contact do vary. But by
and large the most common method is that be it an
Iraqi family, trying to locate a family member who's
been kidnapped, or international representatives of
companies or embassies, it's a matter of putting out
the word. Principally, that's done through a number
of clerical or religious organisations, peak
organisations which represent Islamic clerics,
particularly conservative Sunni clerics. More often
than not they're a conduit - that if you approach
them, they're able to contact their networks of imams
and mosques, and invariably, word trickles back and a
line of communication opens. That more often than not
is the channel that is forged.
MARK DAVIS: If kidnapping has become a business
proposition in Iraq as well as a political tool, is
there a chance if there are Australians that have
been captured, that they're being held and perhaps
sold up the food chain, if you like, to another group
who could use them?
MICHAEL WARE: That's very likely. In many instances,
the people who actually grab the hostages are not the
people at the end of the day who are negotiating
their release or who finalise their release. Often it
will be a criminal gang or it will be an ad hoc
situation where low-level militia men, acting on an
opportunity, seize an individual. They're then farmed
up the chain, be it through a chain of command, if
they're in a tightly controlled militant group, or
they're sold on to the highest bidder. Now, if that
individual's company is the highest bidder or if an
al-Qa'ida-aligned group, then that's the way it goes.
MARK DAVIS: It might be one of the reasons why we
haven't heard anything as yet - those negotiations
still may be going on internally.
MICHAEL WARE: Very much so. But it's not unusual,
given it's only, what, 48 hours or so that has
elapsed since these fellows were allegedly kidnapped
that we haven't heard anything more from the
kidnappers. Proof of life in Iraq is generally via
videos that are released. It's not unusual for that
to take days, occasionally even weeks.
MARK DAVIS: OK. Well, the Australian Government is
saying very clearly that it won't negotiate in this
particular instance, or any other. Now, if they mean
what they say, then presumably if you are an
Australian that gets captured in Iraq, you are as
good as dead?
MICHAEL WARE: Well, certainly in all regards, we
consider ourselves on our own, so we have to take
care of ourselves, including in the hostage
situation. However, it does not preclude the
possibility that, whilst the Australian Government
will not negotiate, an employer will more often than
not negotiate. Embassies may facilitate that. But
certainly embassies themselves do not hand over the
cash, it does not come from state coffers - that
generally comes from the company that employs the
individual hostages.
MARK DAVIS: So who would you want handling your
release if you were captured?
MICHAEL WARE: Heaven forbid that the possibility
should ever arise, Mark, but I guess that would be my
Iraqi friends and contacts themselves. They would
best know how to communicate, what kind of a dialogue
to open and I would like to think they would have the
best chance of understanding exactly what it is the
hostage takers are after and find some way to either
accommodate that or hopefully to persuade them to
secure my release.
MARK DAVIS: Just lastly, Michael, we are becoming, it
seems, a little numb to bombings in Iraq, but this
week seems to have taken a different turn with
attacks happening in central Baghdad. You have to
wonder about the prospects of moving towards an
election, I imagine, as scheduled.
MICHAEL WARE: I think that's a very shaky notion of
trying to blunder on, as you could put it, to an
election in January next year. There are entire
swathes of this country, as much as a third of the
territorial domain of Iraq, which is beyond US
coalition or Iraqi Government control. That's
enormous parts of the country. How can you have an
election in an area like that?
MARK DAVIS: OK, well, thanks again for joining us,
Michael.
MICHAEL WARE: My pleasure, Mark.