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ANDERSON COOPER: With us
now in Baghdad, "TIME" Magazine's Michael Ware and
CNN's Nic Robertson. Also Radio Host and Blogger Hugh
Hewitt. He is in Orange County, California. And in
Seattle, Michael Yon, a retired green beret, a
frequent visitor to Iraq and the author of "Danger
Close."
Good to see you all.
Michael, let's start off with you. We just heard
Gayle and Kent talk about stories from the war, acts
of heroism and kindness, rebuilding bridges that
soldiers are doing every day. What did you see while
you were there? And why don't you think those stories
are getting told?
MICHAEL YON, U.S. ARMY (RETIRED): Well, Gayle and
Kent told the truth. That is absolutely the truth.
There are a lot of bombs, of course, and a lot of
shootings and whatnot -- a great deal. But it's much
easier to tell the bad news. It's easy. The strobe
light flashes, you know, the bomb goes off, you take
a picture, you have a story. It's easy news. It grabs
people's attention. And it makes money.
COOPER: Wait a minute. Actually, let me ask you about
that. Because what is easy about going, hanging out
with insurgents or going out on patrol? Isn't it
easier, frankly, to go -- I mean, if reporters are
looking for the easy thing, wouldn't they be going to
a hospital opening and giving out toys to children
and showing that?
YON: Well, yes. That's true and Michael Ware, I'm
sure, and Nic Robertson will take issue when I said
it's easy, because I spent my time over there, as
well, and I'm about to go back. It's certainly not
easy, but it's quick.
But Michael Ware and Nic Robertson do dig in. A lot
of people don't. And they get in there and they just
tell the quick, easy story of what's going on; or the
stringer takes a photo, you know, of a car bomb, and
they report the story and basically all we get is
day-to-day body counts.
COOPER: Michael Ware, what about that? You're the
bureau chief for "TIME" Magazine."You spent a lot of
time with insurgents. You put your life at risk. Do
you also tell what, I guess some people would call
positive stories?
MICHAEL WARE, BUREAU CHIEF, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well,
certainly one tries to, Anderson. You tell whatever
story comes along. I mean, I've been embedded with
the U.S. military countless times and I've produced
many stories as a result of that, be it heroism in
battle, be it the success of operations, be it the
disruption of insurgent networks. And Michael Yon's
website, I mean his reporting from Mosul, from within
the U.S. military was outstanding. But, I mean, it
comes from within a certain prism.
We face a similar constraint. We have our own prism
and that is life on the street in Iraq, in Baghdad,
and the good and the bad that comes with it. It means
we can't travel, but it also means that we're exposed
to the raw reality of what it's like for Iraqis.
COOPER: Hugh Hewitt, do you buy that?
HUGH HEWITT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: No, Anderson, I
don't. Although I think -- I've read a lot of Mr.
Ware's work in the last couple days, it's great work.
But I think you're missing the point of what happened
in West Virginia today. What happened there is a
public demonstration of growing contempt for elite
mainstream media, because they do have an agenda. The
agenda is perceived as being antiwar. It's not Ernie
Pyle. It's a lot more like the Vietnam era, and the
American people are growing in their conviction that
not only is the media not helping win the war, but
they are endangering soldiers.
And I'll tell you an important story. I ran into Ed
Blecksmith last month in Los Angeles. Ed lost his
son, J.P. Blecksmith, a lieutenant in the Marines in
Fallujah on 11/11. And he told me that he believes
reporting in the war zone is encouraging attacks on
the troops because it is encouraging the insurgents
to believe that they can win by hanging on.
A point made to me today by Christopher Hitchens and
by many others liberal and center observers of the
media. The media including the insurgent coverage
that Mr. Ware's been involved in, is becoming
increasingly irresponsible, and the American people
deeply resent it.
COOPER: I want to let Michael Ware respond to it, but
first, Nic Robertson, what do you think of that? Do
you worry that you're encouraging insurgents?
NIC ROBERTSON, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT:
There is a huge propaganda war going on here, and the
insurgents are certainly very, very aware of what
they're doing. They will try and put bombs in front
of cameras. They will try and blow up hotels where
journalists are. And if they can get something on a
website, they will trumpet it right away.
The attacks on a police station two days ago, that
was being claimed on al Qaeda website later in the
day. Whether or not it was them, is not clear. It's
very hard to verify if it was.
I think that we're in danger here of saying -- this
is something I think we've all heard of before: don't
shoot the messenger. Just because what the message
that perhaps appears to be coming across is a
negative message, the message with a bad picture. It
doesn't necessarily mean the people bearing that
message have negative intentions. We come here
without an agenda. Our contract, our contract and
obligation is to the audience, to inform the
audience. And we do nobody any favors by coming here
with an agenda or with a view. And I think the
reporters that I know here, that's the way we set out
to do our job. And we're very aware of what the
insurgents want to do. We're very aware of what the
Iraqi people think about the incidents. And we do our
absolute best to give a very fair, full and accurate
picture.
COOPER: Michael Ware, since you spent a lot of time
with insurgents, I mean, do you worry that you are
just giving them a voice?
WARE: Oh obviously, Anderson. One has to be very
careful. But one applies the same journalistic
criteria to the insurgents that we apply to the
military. I mean, this is war. Propaganda or
information operations is an enormous part of that
for both sides. Everyone in war lies to you. Everyone
exaggerates, underplays and puts their spin.
There's a political aspect to the very nature of war
that needs to be capitalized and manipulated by these
players. So we need to add these filters and distill
the truth ourselves. I mean, just this anti-liberal
media campaign that's been driven from where? From
within the political landscape of the United States.
I'm in a fortunate position. I am an Australian,
writing for an American magazine. I have no stake
either way. I can -- I have no agenda to pursue. I
just want to know, what is really going on here?
COOPER: Michael Yon, what do Nic Robertson and
Michael Ware not get? When you hear what they're
saying, what do you think?
YON: Well, I'm not -- I don't think that they not get
anything. They both definitely earned their opinions.
I mean, these two gentlemen have been out...
COOPER: I think we just lost Michael Yon.
Hugh Hewitt, when you hear Michael Ware speaking and
you hear Nic Robertson speaking, your take?
HEWITT: Well, I'm not personalizing it. I think they
are fine reporters who do no have agendas. And Tim
Blair's a great acquaintance of mine, has great
respect for Mr. Ware. Nic does great work.
I'm talking about what happened in West Virginia
today. And it ties in back to, for example, the "New
York Times" leaking sensitive information about the
NSA wiretap of al Qaeda conducting contacts with
their agents in the United States. It goes back to
what I think was generally perceived as overkill,
extreme overkill on Abu Ghraib, the refusal on the
part of the American media to ever come to grips with
the fact that those were rogue elements in the
American military representative of nothing. I hope
you can get Michael Yon back on because I think what
I would like to ask Michael to confirm is what I've
heard time and time again, is the great contempt
among American military serving abroad for what they
see when they get home or what they see on CNN when
they watch it in their bases. They don't believe the
media's doing a good job of portraying what's
happening there.
And I think the denial in elite media leads to a kind
of reaction, counter-reaction so that the contempt
grows and disdain for the media grows deeper and
deeper.
COOPER: Unfortunately, Michael Yon -- for some reason
our satellite is down. So, but Hugh, I want to stick
with you on that point.
You know, in the times that I've been in Iraq and you
talk to soldiers, sometimes they will say to you,
look, you guys aren't showing the full picture. But,
one other soldier said to me, you know, everybody
sees their own slice of the war. And when you're a
soldier and you're in one unit, you're living on a
base, you don't really see much about life on the
Iraqi streets. I mean some of them obviously do. But
often, you're very isolated in what you see.
Is it possible that some people who feel that their
viewpoint is not being reflected, maybe they're not
seeing the full picture?
HEWITT: Anderson, that's possible. But that's not
their major complaint. Their major complaint is that
the insurgents are playing the media like a bongo
drum and that they have become to become enamored
with the idea that they can drive America from the
field by creating enough chaos and enough media shots
to weaken the will of the American people to persist
in the liberation of Iraq.
And that's what Ed Blecksmith was saying. That's what
I've heard echoed time and time again, is that the
American media is getting Americans killed. They
don't care to understand the insurgent point of view.
They're terrorists. They don't care to understand
what the Baathist or rejectionists believe. They are
people who kill civilians and innocent. They
certainly don't give a damn about what Zarqawi thinks
because he's a cold-blooded killer.
I think this is the message that the media does not
get out or is missing.
COOPER: It is a good discussion to have and one we
hope to continue to have. We had it last night,
tonight and we hope to just keep going with this.
Hugh Hewitt, we'd love to have you on again.
Michael Yon, I don't know what happened with our
satellite. Not a plot, I promise. But we will have
you on again.
And Michael Ware and Nic Robertson, as always, thank
you very much, gentlemen. A good
discussion.