Click photo to play
Length: 4:38
KIRAN CHETRY: Well, as
the political rhetoric over the war in Iraq heats up
in Washington, who better to break down the security
situation there than two CNN journalists who just
returned from the country. CNN anchor Kyra Phillips
and correspondent Michael Ware join me now.
Thanks to both of you for being with us, and we
talked a little bit to Kyra in the last hour, so
Michael I want to just ask you, because there's been
some talk and some debate about whether or not the
picture we are getting from some of the officials is
really what's going on on the ground. So we're going
to hear right from General Petraeus about what he
said when he gave his assessment yesterday. Let's
listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, COMMANDER, MULTINATIONAL FORCES
IN IRAQ: As you know, literally over the last two
months, Anbar has gone -- or certainly over the last
six months -- from being assessed as being lost to a
situation that now is quite heartening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHETRY: The Anbar province, one of the most deadly,
Michael.
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Look, I
know General David Petraeus personally and he is a
straight shooter. In fact, what he is saying there is
true, but what we are not hearing is how that was
achieved. Anbar province, the violence is coming
down, al Qaeda is under a lot of pressure. It's not
because of U.S. forces. The Marines last year
admitted they didn't have enough troops. The way
they've done it is they've cut a deal with the
Baathist insurgents and unleashed the insurgents from
Iraq on the foreign al Qaeda fighters. They cut a
deal.
CHETRY: So you're saying that it's Baathists that are
fighting the insurgency?
WARE: Yup. Yup.
CHETRY: So wouldn't that be characterized as
sectarian violence?
WARE: No, because it's Sunni on Sunni. One of these
is secular Baathists -- this is essentially Iraq's
version of former West Pointers. These are men who
never had a religious agenda. So what they were
fighting was the U.S. occupation. They never had an
alliance with al Qaeda per se. So the Americans have
said to them, okay, we'll empower you locally, we'll
give you ammunition, you can launch your own
operations. When I asked Ambassador Khalilzad as he
was leaving the country, how do you address the
perception that this isn't an assassination program
backed by multinational forces, he sat back and
smiled and said we have no love lost for the struggle
against al Qaeda or for the killing of al Qaeda.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's actually a
pretty brilliant idea if you think about it, because
they are giving the power back to the locals, as he
said, the Baathists, the tribal sheikhs, they were
going after U.S. troops and now they are going after
al Qaeda. It's a brilliant idea and Michael, you and
I have talked about this. This should have been
happening a long time ago. This is one province.
There are what, 18 provinces in Iraq? That's the
goal. If they can achieve this in all the provinces,
hey, they have hit something.
CHETRY: This is the irony too, the de-Baathification
that took place. The Baathists were the ones who were
Saddam Hussein's henchmen. They were the ones that
were told to go home and were not getting a paycheck
in the early days of the war.
WARE: Which is widely accepted by every war planner,
every politician, every diplomat right now as the
greatest gaffe of the war, disbanding the Iraqi
military and disbanding the first four tiers of the
Baath party. i mean, the Baath party is essentially a
pan-Arabist nationalist organization. It doesn't
share any kind of al Qaeda-like agenda. Yet these
were the people who ran the country. These were the
public servants.
CHETRY: Weren't they the people who kept down the
Shia?
WARE: Back under Saddam, the sectarian violence
occurred but it was more of a political measure. Why
did Saddam attack the Shia? Because they were
uprising and resisting his regime. Don't forget,
Saddam had a Christian in his cabinet. He had Shia at
the senior levels of his intelligence service, Shia
in the senior ranks of his military. Saddam wasn't
sectarian per se. It's just if you threatened him
politically, he would kill you. Sunni, Shia, Kurd --
it didn't matter.
CHETRY: Kyra, you talk about a fear, a significant
fear that people talked about Saddam and his regime.
PHILLIPS: Yeah, I mean just talking to the Iraqi
people, talking to U.S. military, but even more so
the Iraqis. I asked them, I said look at least your
life was calm, there wasn't any chaos. He was a
tyrant. He was crazy. He killed innocent people. How
do you feel about your life now and all this
violence? They agree. They said he had to go. He was
a tyrant, but they have said to me time and time
again, our life was so much more calm. At least we
had a job. We were making money. So they are
conflicted because they are seeing what they used to
have, AKA a peaceful life, and now they're struggling
with this violence. But they don't want Saddam back.
They knew that he was a tyrant.
WARE: But they just want to return to normalcy. They
want to be able to walk to the market without having
that market blow up and butcher everyone there. They
want to send their kids to school.
PHILLIPS: Of course. They don't have flak jackets.
They don't have the kind of security Mick and I would
have or the U.S. military would have.
CHETRY: You call him Mick, not Michael. This is what
confused me at the beginning. Kyra Phillips, Michael
Ware, great perspective from both of you. Thank you
so much. John.
Click photo to play
Length: 7:20
JOHN ROBERTS: Also, back
from Iraq -- CNN's Kyra Phillips and Michael Ware
join us and answer you questions about what it's
really like in Iraq for people who live there and
what it's like covering the war. American Morning,
coming right back.
KIRAN CHETRY: And we're back now with CNN's Kyra
Phillips and war correspondent Michael Ware. They
both have just come back from Iraq.
Kyra and Michael, thanks for being with us once
again.
And we asked you before to give us your take on some
words from General Petraeus, the top commander in
Iraq. He spoke yesterday on the Capitol. Let's hear
one more statement from him yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, COMMANDER, MULTINATIONAL FORCES
IN IRAQ: What I would like to see Iraq end as, of
course, is a government, a country that is one Iraq,
with a government that is representative of and
responsive to the people, all the people of Iraq,
that can defend itself, at peace with itself, and
ideally an ally in the global war on terror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHETRY: That's a lot. I mean, that's a lofty goal. Is
it possible, Kyra?
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I have to tell you,
I heard that quote. And I thought, okay, General,
would you stop being so PC and stop saying what
everybody wants?
Of course everybody wants peace in Iraq. And I even
sent him an e-mail this morning. We've been having
correspondence. And I said, "Give me a break. Tell me
what you really were saying."
And he said right here -- he said, "I'm not going to
lie. I talk about the setbacks as well. There have
also been the sensational car bomb attacks, the
tragic loss of the combat outpost three days ago, and
the challenges in Diyala province, which,
understandably, have tended to overshadow the sense
of slow progress on the ground in Baghdad, Anbar and
some other locations."
He's a straight shooter. You've just got to know what
to ask him and how to pick at him.
This is -- this was such a PC answer. And I know you
spent a lot of time in Diyala province. You know he's
a straight shooter, too. And he's making a good point
about the setbacks in that area.
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, absolutely. I
mean, Diyala is now the new frontline against al
Qaeda. I mean, to be honest, it's a tragically bloody
affair.
The brigade that was there last year lost 19 troops
in 12 months. The brigade there now has lost 50 in
six months.
And you listen very carefully to what General
Petraeus says. He says, this is what we would like to
see, a representative government.
When I was in Diyala province, I interviewed a
two-star general on camera for CNN, and he admitted
for the first time from anyone in the military that
they are now prepared to accept options other than
democracy. Now, this is what this war was sold to the
American public on. Yet, they are saying now
democracy isn't mandatory, it's an option, and that
they are prepared to see a government that can
protect itself, give services to its people, and it
doesn't have to be democratic.
In fact, the general said most of our allies in this
region are not democratic. So that fundamentally
addresses the root cause of why America says it went
to war. And now the military is saying, well, we may
not get there.
CHETRY: Well, the problem is, is that it's left into
the hands, it is up to the Iraqis if they want
democracy. I mean, at the beginning it was to clear
the way so that could be the path. If that's not how
it goes for them, we can't force it.
WARE: No. But I mean, remember, the vision for Iraq
was to establish this shining model of democracy that
it was hoped would then spread throughout the region.
Well, the security situation has become so bad,
Iranian influence has become so strong, Iran is much
stronger because of this war. Al Qaeda is much
stronger because of this war.
And as military men, not diplomats, not politicians,
they're saying first is security. And if another kind
of government that is not democratic but is strong
and is an ally of the U.S., we will accept that.
CHETRY: Let's answer some questions that our
e-mailers asked us this morning. One of them was
about how Iraqis live.
"How do Iraqis live and go about their ordinary
lives? Where do they eat out and where do they shop?"
Kyra.
PHILLIPS: They don't. I mean, you don't go to a
coffee shop and have a Starbucks. You don't go to the
movies. You don't just cruise the -- stroll along the
main strip on -- in the evening.
There is no normal social life in Iraq. And it's hard
for Iraqis, because this was the heyday decades ago.
WARE: Yeah. Yeah.
PHILLIPS: I mean, especially under Saddam. I mean,
you could party and have a great time. And so they
have just become accustomed to that. They just hope
they can get up and walk to work, whether it's their
dress shop or their pharmacy or whatever it is, and
just make it there alive, make some money, make it
back home to their family, and cook dinner.
WARE: I'll give you an example. I mean, there's an
area of Baghdad where I used to live. And at night it
was alive with Iraqi families going out to
restaurants, shopping, boys on the streets trying to
meet girls at ice cream parlors.
This same area now is a battle zone. All the
buildings are destroyed. American troops continue to
die and get hurt there.
And indeed, one of my dearest Iraqi friends just two
days, three days before I left the country, his
father, his uncle and two of his cousins went to the
shop. Luckily, his father got out of the car, walked
into the shop. While he was in the shop, a car bomb
detonated and he lost his uncle and both his cousins.
CHETRY: Yes, and it's tragic to hear about this. And
as we talk about solutions, and we talk about --
would all of us, all the American troops pulling out
help the situation?
PHILLIPS: No. No way.
WARE: Gee, no.
PHILLIPS: It would be a disaster. I mean, I had a
chance to sit down with the minister of defense, to
General Petraeus, Admiral Fallon, head of CENTCOM. I
asked them all the question, whether Iraqi or U.S.
military.
There is no way U.S. troops could pull out. It would
be a disaster. They are doing too much training. They
are helping the Iraqis not only with security, but
trying to get the government up and running.
I mean, this is a country of let's make a deal.
There's so much corruption still. If the U.S.
military left -- they have rules of engagement, they
have an idea, a focus. It would be a disaster.
WARE: Well, even more than that, I mean, if you just
want to look at it in terms of purely American
national interest, if U.S. troops leave now, you're
giving Iraq to Iran, a member of President Bush's
axis of evil, and al Qaeda. That's who will own it.
And so, coming back now, I'm struck by the nature of
the debate on Capitol Hill, how delusional it is.
Whether you are for this war or against it, whether
you've supported the way it's been executed or not,
it does not matter. You broke it, you've got to fix
it now. You can't leave, or it's going to come and
blow back on America.
PHILLIPS: The U.S. owns this. And that's a very
interesting point that you bring up about Iran.
Everybody keeps talking about a timeline. Is the U.S.
winning this war? They have to start talking about
other issues, like the influence of Iran.
I mean, every single day there are munitions and
training and advice and support coming from Iran. I
mean, they do not want the U.S. to have any presence
there.
CHETRY: And we could talk about this all day. It is
such a fascinating conversation. Unfortunately, we
are out of time.
Michael Ware, Kyra Phillips...
PHILLIPS: The two of us never stop talking. Right?
CHETRY: I know you don't. Well, you do long enough to
cut his hair, because I heard you were his barber in
Iraq. So now he's going to be in a pickle if he goes
back.
PHILLIPS: And thanks for the bottle of wine. I
appreciate it.
WARE: I didn't want to get blown up on the way to the
hairdresser.
CHETRY: John.
ROBERTS: Yeah, I've been there. The question is,
where in Iraq do you go for a haircut? Where can you
go?
PHILLIPS: You go to me, John. I did a really -- can't
you tell? I did a great job.
WARE: Yeah. That's how desperate I was.
ROBERTS: You did a lovely job, Kyra.
And it's great to see you back stateside, Michael,
although I don't know if New York City is going to be
able to handle you after four months in Iraq.
(LAUGHTER)
WARE: Put it this way, it was a long night, mate.
ROBERTS: All right. Good to see you.